Aging ≠ Diminished Capacity: How Detroit's Hannan Center Supports Caregivers and Dementia Care

In this episode of Advice From Your Advocates Podcast, elder law attorney Bob Mannor speaks with Vincent Tilford from the Hannan Center about advocacy for older adults, caregivers, and families navigating aging and dementia care.

They discuss how ageism impacts older adults—and their caregivers—along with the growing challenges families face when supporting loved ones with dementia, chronic illness, or increasing care needs. Vincent shares how community organizations like the Hannan Center help reduce isolation, promote independence, and provide meaningful support for both older adults and family caregivers.

The conversation also explores how art and creativity can improve health outcomes for older adults, including those living with cognitive decline, and why caregiver education, health care navigation, and advocacy are essential as dementia diagnoses rise nationwide.

This episode is especially valuable for caregivers, elder care professionals, and families seeking practical insight into dementia care, caregiver support, and building community-based solutions that honor dignity at every stage of aging.

Learn more about Detroit's Hannan Center: https://hannan.org/

Mannor Law Group: https://www.mannorlawgroup.com

Host: Elder Law Attorney Bob Mannor 

Guest: Vincent Tilford, Hannan Center

Executive Producer: Savannah Meksto

Assistant Producers: Samantha Noah, Shalene Gaul

Transcript

Meet Vincent Tilford And Hannan Center

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to Advice from Your Advocates, a show where we provide elder law advice to professionals who work with the elderly and their families.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome back to Advice from Your Advocates. I'm Bob Manner. I'm a board-certified elder law attorney in Michigan. I'm excited about today's guest, Vincent Tilford from the Hannon Center. Vincent spent his life helping seniors age in place with purpose and has been promoting independence and combating ageism for many years. Vincent, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Thank you very much, Bob. Glad to be on your show.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Tell us a little bit about your attorney and the Hannon Center.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Okay, well, actually, I haven't spent my life in aging. Actually, I came to this about 10 years ago. But prior to that, I did a lot of work in terms of housing, community, and economic development work, both in Arkansas as well as here in Southeast Michigan. And in the course of doing that work, or in all the organizations that I've worked for, the emphasis is often on families, people with children. And we often tend to overlook the older people that are in the communities that we're serving. And at the time, I was with Habitat for Humanity and we were working in a community. And as a community that had been hollowed out. A lot of people had left. But the people who stayed there were the older people. And they really were the glue holding, you know, those communities and those neighborhoods together. But there were very few programs that support older adults. Those programs that do exist, they're pretty fragmented. And so, whereas with others, they try to take more of a holistic case management approach. So when the opportunity came along to join Hannon Center, I jumped at it because I don't see many organizations at all that really support older adults. I mean, we we tend to push older people in the corner, tell them, you know, go sit somewhere, relax. And as a result, we end up isolating them. And when they're invisible, if they're not in front of us all the time, we don't think about the needs and concerns of older people.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Especially when it comes to housing and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah. You know, I have a quote from you here saying that aging does not equate to diminished capacity. I think that's really important. And

Seeing Older Adults Made Invisible

SPEAKER_01 2:10

uh, you if you want to talk a little bit about that, aging does not equate to disminute diminished capacity.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I I agree. And I'll approach this a couple of ways. First, I think ageism is at the crux of everything that we're dealing with. So when I talk about ageism, I'm talking about not just the birthday cards with the you know the age jokes, but we celebrate youth in this country. Yeah. And as a result, as I said earlier, we don't think about older people. It gets into our DNA, I think, all of us, not just older people, but even I'm I'm gonna say this, Bob, I'm 64 years old. And I was very uncomfortable when I first started telling my age because when people think of you as a serving age, you already know they're gonna look at you differently, right? Right. And so unfortunately for me, I've had like three operations since the beginning of the pandemic. I'm fine now, but anytime I traveled and found myself on a plane, having to move slowly for whatever reason, I could feel the people's impatience because I'm a slow-moving person, right? And so ageism affects us in such a way, even those who are older, those of us who are older, it gets into our system and we begin to believe it. And then we begin to relinquish our ability to make our decisions. We begin to rely on those around us. I remember one time my mom, my mom lived to 95. She died a couple years ago. Wow. But I remember when she was in her late 80s, I took her to see an eye doctor. And I was only taking her to see the eye doctor because she couldn't drive because of her eyes. So I'm just taking her there. I asked her, hey, you want me to be in the room with you? She says, sure, if you come on into the room with me. And as soon as we got into the room, the doctor began to direct all of his questions to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

And I said to him, I says, Hey, she's perfectly capable of answering these questions. I'm just here because she wanted me here. That's it. So that's, you know, I say ageism's at the crux of it. And when we begin to treat people as if somehow their abilities, their capacities have been diminished, we take that on. Because my mom in that situation

Ageism And The Myth Of Decline

SPEAKER_00 4:15

was going to defer to me. But I says, no, you can answer those questions. You should continue to be your own advocate, and I'm there for support if you need it. So I would say that's a big reason why I think we we find that you know we diminish older people and we begin to take on that persona. And at the end of the day, we leaves us all, I think, less well off as we could be as a society.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I have a similar experience on that with my father, and we were in the hospital as the ER, and so you know, a lot of things going on, but he was perfectly capable and very strong. And uh they were still directing the conversation to the children, and it's like, okay, I'd kind of would move over and go towards my dad and be like, you know, he's the one that you should be talking to about this. He can understand everything. I wanted to uh give another example of that. Ageism equaling diminished capacity is even sometimes built into the law. I was chair of the State Bar, Michigan Elder and Disability Rights Section. And when we were, when I was chair and before and after, there's been numerous laws that came forward that they set an age. So, you know, good laws uh trying to combat elder abuse, trying to make sure, so both financial and physical and and other things. And what they wanted to do, what the legislature wanted to do, was set an age. And they were just saying, okay, if you if it's Sunday over 65, then we're presuming that they're diminished, you know, capacity. And that's not right. And actually, the very first time it came up, I was new on the board and it it hadn't occurred to me. And so when some of the older lawyers objected, I was like, What wait, tell me, what's the objection about? And it was, you know, it was easily explained because just because you're over 65, now with the ones that were involving criminal action, the prosecutor's excuse was, well, we don't want to have to prove democapacity or anything like that. We just want to have a bright line in the sand that if you, you know, behave this way towards somebody over 65, there's extra punishment for it. And it's it's it is kind of the principle of the thing, uh, that it's just in 65 is not that's young still, I in my view. And so it's one of those things where I think incorporating that in the law, it just it it it it puts it in people's heads that okay, once you turn 65, people gotta make decisions for you. And that doesn't seem right.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, I used to work with the Michigan Dementia Coalition, and I remember us debating or talking about the definition of a vulnerable older adult.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

That's the word that I was looking for. Yeah, and I that really concerned me because you know, if you're just gonna use an age, well, next year I'm gonna be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Right. Right. Yeah. And and it's it's, you know, I get the idea that they want to protect seniors, but at the same time, I think that you're making the issue worse as far as the ageism. I know you've spent about a decade working with older adults. Where did this passion for older adults come from? Was it just from your previous experience where you saw most of the services directed towards the younger families?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

So, from a couple things. I would say yes. The first answer is yeah, the work that I used to do, I kept seeing all of these older people in the communities and nobody was helping them. And I began wondering about sort of who is helping them, how do we support them, that kind of thing. But when I was born, my dad was 51 years old, and I was always embarrassed by his age. If he was around my friends, my classmates, or whatever, I would say that he was my grandfather, right? I was that embarrassed, right? And then later on, I mean as I grew older and I I recognized all the things that he could do at an age that others couldn't do at younger ages. And I began to get a little bit of a different appreciation. My mom actually lived with my wife and I for about 20-something years. Wow. And it wasn't because she needed a caregiver, but she moved here to Michigan from Ohio because when our first son was born, she says, Hey, I'm gonna come out and help you

When Systems And Laws Assume Frailty

SPEAKER_00 8:30

take care of your child, and you don't have to, you know, worry about child care. And then a second son was born, and so she did that as well. So she took them to school, picked them up from school, you know, we couldn't make an event, she would take them there. And I remember one day asking my sons, I said, What do you consider old? How old is old, right? And AARP does an interesting video about that where you ask a bunch of 20-somethings and 30-somethings about it. And they talked about 50s being old. So when I asked my sons that, they said, you know, 80-something, I guess, which was about my mother's age at the time. I was like, okay. So being in a multi-generational household, I think, really helps to shape one's view about aging. For me, I had to get to there, and I'm still dealing with my own age beliefs because we we still have them, you know, we've grown up with them. But but my children hopefully have a different perspective on it because they were introduced to someone who was capable and doing things up into her, you know, early 90s.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Nice. I it's funny, I have a similar experience. My own parents were older when I was born. I was the youngest of six, so they would drag me around with them for all their volunteer work, and they did volunteer work with elderly clergy. And so I was I was raised around, you know, people that were in their 80s and 90s, at least several times a week, visit you know, visiting, helping out, you know, just hanging out with them, playing games, things like that. And so as an adult, it took me a little bit to realize it when I became a lawyer, but I've always had an affection for older adults and just always felt very comfortable with that group. And so it's funny that we have both had parents that the same my dad, my dad was older, both of them were older when I was born, but my dad was significantly older. Let's talk a little bit more about the Hannon Center. You're the CEO and president. Can you tell us a little bit about the history and then some of the things that the Hannon Center does for people?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, so we've been around 100 years. Our original name is the Lowella Hannon Memorial Foundation. We were founded by Lowella Hannan, whose husband passed and left her some money. And what was interesting, I think, about her story is that at the time when her husband passed, women didn't have the right to vote. Women could not open a banking account without a male signature. So here was that this woman received this sum of money, and her husband's, you know, deceased husband's relatives challenged her around this and said basically, you know, she's incompetent because she was a woman. Right. And so she ended up prevailing in the end. But her husband has said, you know, you can do what you want with this money to help out the people of Detroit. And I believe that when she saw her situation where women who had means or had support before and their husbands die, and they don't have that support any longer, I think that really was what motivated her to sort of start an organization like Lloyd Hanna Memorial Foundation. We were started 10 years before Social Security and 40 years before Medicare and Medicaid. So I always tell people we were the social safety net for seniors in Detroit before there was a social safety net. And so what we did is we provided a stipend similar to a Social Security check that people received. We helped people out with their health care. They needed doctor's visits or dental visions, vision. We did that. We've even provided money for incidentals as well. But doing all of that back in the 20s, you know, you can imagine what it was like here in Detroit. That was almost at the height of our population. Yeah. And it was a rough period. And so we almost went bankrupt trying to support all of the older people that were coming to our doors. But

Family Stories That Reframe Aging

SPEAKER_00 12:20

we were one of the first, certainly among the first here in Michigan to do it, and I believe nationwide to do this. And so the original idea was to create a place where older people could live and all of their needs would be met in terms of food and housing and that kind of thing. But we couldn't find a suitable place. Initially, they wanted to build in Gross Point, and Gross Point said, no, we don't want that. It's going to bring down our property values. So for until about 1970, 1971, we basically helped seniors to age in place by providing them stipends, helping them to age in place. I mean, in 1971, we built the facility that we're in right now. We call it Hannon Center. It was a 51, 52 unit apartment building. They had beauty shops, barber shops, you know, things for everybody to do here. What it didn't have was kitchens with each apartment unit. Everything was done as a congregate mill. And as a result, our building kind of became obsolete. And we went back to our original mission about helping older people to kind of age in place there. Since then, we've we've also added a couple of other things. Art is very essential to the work that we do here. We believe in the power of art to improve health outcomes. There was a longitudinal study that was done that showed that older people who engaged in really robust, rigorous art activities end up with fewer doctor visits, fewer medications. They report better overall health. So we try to make certain that we have lots of art everywhere and we have a variety of classes at different levels. And not only does it help to sort of exercise another part of that brain, but it also helps to reduce isolation because people get to come together and be with uh, I'm gonna say, their tribe, you know, people who are thinking like them in this regard. So we do that. And then the other thing I'll mention is we started this actually at the beginning of 2020. We closed in March of 2020. We we opened an adult day program for people who have a dementia diagnosis. And then we opened up a year later, and that's been going gangbusters, just the need is so tremendous, particularly for facilities that understand both the caregiver what they're going through when they are caring for someone that has a dementia diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I really love that part about the creativity and the artistic expression. That I think, especially with dementia, that a lot of times there's certain parts of the brain that aren't cooperating completely, especially memory, but often the creative part, the artistic expression, the music is still there. I worked with an occupational therapist that uh one of the things that she would do with her patients is when they couldn't remember to use their walker, she would create this song for them that would just kind of be this song that they would have in their head. And she would sing out loud to them every time she got a chance. The song was basically reminding them to use their walker. And uh it worked because it wasn't, it didn't have the same synopsis, it didn't have the same pathways in the brain. And using that artistic expression, using that music was a way to help this person be safe.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I love that story. It was a gosh, I think it was a video that was going around about a center that served people that had a dementia diagnosis. And there was this guy there who was pretty much catatonic. He just sat there and didn't do anything, right? And then one day they got this idea, you know, they knew how old he was. And so they put some earphones on him and played music back from his youth. And the next thing you know, he sat up straight, he began singing along, tapping his foot. You know, he came back to life because it touched this memory that he had. So yeah, we really believe in the power of art and music here.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah, that's that's fantastic. And that's something you don't see very often. So that's something special about the hand in the center. You mentioned, you know, some of the challenges, but talk about what some of the challenges facing older adults and especially in Detroit right now.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, there's oh my gosh, there's so many of them. One of the things that I worry about right now is what's happening,

Hannan Center’s Century Of Service

SPEAKER_00 16:30

what the impact of the Big Beautiful bill is going to be for older adults. You know, the the purpose of what they were trying to get at with the Big Beautiful bill was to root out fraud and abuse. And the way that they're going to do that is to force older people to have to recertify if they're getting Medicaid. They're gonna have to recertify a couple times a year. Yeah. There was also, you know, you know, over the last nine months here or so, you know, we also saw that they were closing Social Security offices. They were saying that you had to come in to an office to prove your identity. You know, all of these kinds of things I think older people can do with support. But when the administrative burden becomes so great for older people, we have to think about the other challenges that they might be facing that has nothing to do with fraud or abuse. It's just that it's going to be a challenge. If I'm a person that has MS, for an example, and I might be perfectly okay on the computer and perfectly all right in my mind, but I am paralyzed. I can't walk. Now I have to go down if I want to vote, and I have to go and get and recertify myself and get all this new identification because, yeah, I'm female and I was, you know, married and I took my, I hyphenated my name, and now I need this new documentation to kind of prove who I am at 80-something years old. That's difficult for a person, and they might give up. And it doesn't mean you've gotten rid of fraud and abuse. It just means that you made the administrative requirements so high that for someone that is not mobile, doesn't have, can't afford internet or any number of issues, you can see where they could become a challenge for older people. So I would say that's a big one right there. You know, I also think another major challenge for all of us, and I this is now speaking for personal experience here, Bob, but shortly after you turn 64, you get bombarded with Medicare advertisements, right? Because you got to pick Medicare by the time you're 65, right? And these plans are so complicated. Absolutely. I remember being in a hospital with my mom, and even though I'm in this business, it had never occurred to me ask to ask about her insurance. Never occurred to me. So now I'm in the hospital. I said, mom, what kind of insurance you have? She has Medicare original, right? So now I'm looking it up online and trying to make certain, okay, if she's in this hospital for a certain amount of time, will Medicare cover it? Oh, one thing. And so I think our our health plans, health plan literacy is so low, not just for people in Detroit, but for everyone. Absolutely. And they're changing all the time. This, I, you know, just read that some of the top insurers are dropping like over 1.2 million insured. Wow. Because they found that these Medicare Advantage plans that they had offered previously aren't as profitable as they would like. And so they're going to drop them. But if you have one of those plans and they push you in another one, you're going to think, oh, this is still X insurance company. I guess it's the same thing. And it's not. So that's another major challenge, not just for older people, but for the people who are helping them through their last part of their life's journey as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So for our listeners, the structure of this with Medicare Part A and B, and then Medicare Part C is what they call the advantage plans. And so traditionally, everybody was on Medicare Part A and B, and they'd buy a supplement, okay? And that was this is supplement the copays and things like that. With the Medicare Advantage, Medicare Part C, they take over the whole thing. And where with the original supplements, it was very clear you had specific, you know, A through F or whatever the letters were, and every Medicare Part A supplement was exactly the same. And every Medicare Part B supplement was exactly the same. One of my friends talks about Medicare Advantages and says, if you've seen one Medicare Advantage plan, you've seen one Medicare Advantage plan. Exactly. I remember being at a family uh party and uh I saw my wife's aunt and she she said, I have to make this decision now of what Medicare to get. And like three people said, Oh, just get this one. This is what I have. Well, that's not the idea with Medicare Advantage. It's supposed to be customized to you with the hospitals you use and the doctors you use and the prescriptions you use. There is a program out there that can help with that. It's called and you can usually find them in any of the area agency on aging. And the whole point of it is there is a way to go in to the Medicare website and type in, here's the hospital that I use, here's my situation, and they can help you narrow down your options. I am still of the opinion, and this is just my opinion, that if you're worried about costs and things like that, that often the supplement, which is still an option, it used to be that Michigan had a set option that they kept as a low price. It was a mandatory thing that uh Blue Cross had to offer. And the state mandated that it be a low price. I think it was like $102 or something like that. And the answer was simple just everybody get on that. Well, with all the advertisements and everything else, I just did a present. Turns out is in Michigan, about 64% of people are now on those Medicare Advantage programs.

Art, Music, And Brain Health

SPEAKER_01 22:00

I think it's the price, the amount percentage is going to keep going up on that. I have another couple of things on that. You had mentioned about the recertifications under the big beautiful bill or whatever they want to call it. This is a real problem. And it's and you you described it very well, but it's even sort of a bigger problem. When we were in COVID, they had a moratorium on canceling anybody off of Medicaid. And then all of a sudden, they said, okay, that moratorium's over. It lasted over two years. And so they started sending out these notices that you got it recertified, but they were unpredictable. Maybe they get it came to you in the mail, maybe they didn't. They didn't send more than one notice, I think. And if you missed the deadline, which was 30 days, then they kick you off. That's true. And so we got so many calls in our office of people saying, Well, I must have screwed something up. I got kicked off. And almost always the answer was, you missed something in the mail, or, you know, and then some of the people didn't get anything in the mail. So it wasn't so that, well, everybody's going to get this letter. No, they spaced it out over 14. Some people they didn't even send it. They just re certified, they just recertified them. So nobody knew when or if they were going to get this letter. Now they're saying twice a year on this, you know, you miss a letter and you missed that 30 days. And if you don't know, I mean, most people aren't going to understand that level of sophistication. Most lawyers don't love understand that level of sophistication of, hey, you you got to recertify. You got 30 days to do that. You can ask for extensions, but it's, you know, if you don't respond, they're just going to deny you benefits. So we got so many calls with people getting denied that it was simply a matter of filling out this paperwork.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah, that's very worrisome to me. And one of the ways that Hannon is hoping to help address that is our social workers here, we're trying to get them strengthen their knowledge about Medicare so that as people are having, or Medicaid, I should say, really about both of them. Yeah. But certainly for the Medicaid, if you're having to recertify, is making certain that they have all of their paperwork in order, being able to go over it with them in advance, you know. And if they want us there, again, we want to be led by the older person, not take away their their agency. But if they want us there, we could be there so that as they are talking to whoever that representative is, they can make certain that they are being recertified and have the paperwork for it.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

And that's one of the points is that it is fixable. Now, so some people, once they got kicked off, they didn't know what to do and they just lost their Medicaid. And it was very problematic. And then, you know, something would happen. They'd get to the hospital, and the hospital would say, Well, you don't have Medicaid anymore. And so it is fixable. It is. Let's shift gears just a little bit. I'd like to hear from you about what you think needs of older adults evolving in the future. There's so many changes going on now with the technology and AI and everything else. What are your thoughts about the evolving needs of older adults?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, that's uh that's an interesting one. My first way I might answer this is somehow we have to get older people, bring them in when these interventions, when there's strategies that are being created, we got to bring them in on the front end and not at a back end when we introduce something to them. So an example might be the World Health Organization at AARP partner up to do the age-friendly communities, right? I think it makes a lot of sense, the age-friendly communities, because you you give people a lens that says if it works for somebody at two, it also should be able to work for someone at 92, right? And so I think that one of the things that we have to think about is we have this baby boomer. I'm on the tail end of the baby boomer, but there's a bunch of us that are going to be over 65 here. And it it ends up meaning that those needs are gonna take front and center. You know, we're gonna have this large population that's going to need these services.

Detroit’s Challenges For Older Adults

SPEAKER_00 25:50

So why not bring them into your planning when you're thinking about adding new streets or adding, like here in Detroit, I remember when I got this job, as I said, I started 10 years ago. And um, if you're familiar with Detroit, we have the Q line in Detroit, it runs right out in front of our building. And at the time I started here, it was under construction, right? And I remember talking to a group of seniors, you know, me being, you know, as I said, more age than I am now. But I said to them, I said, Oh, you guys must be really excited about the Q line because it goes up and down by all these senior apartment buildings and everything. They're like, no, it wasn't built for us. No one, no one asked us about this. So the bus stops, for example, for using the bus, the bus stop doesn't coincide with where the Q line stop is going to be. And if I have a walker or if I have a cane or whatever, having to go across these tracks is a little bit precarious for us, right? And that was an eye-opener for me. So I would say that we gotta definitely bring seniors into this process of whatever planning that's going on if we're gonna try to address the needs of older adults. And then the other thing I would say too is you know, our food supply has changed a lot since we were kids, right? So that, you know, and I think it does end up creating a lot of chronic illnesses for us. You know, we end up with these autoimmune diseases and so forth, right? And so we are living longer, but we are not living well longer. And that is one of the things I am concerned about, is particularly if, you know, we a lot of the federal support for medical care, medical benefits, if that ends up going away, I think that's gonna be a real issue for a lot of seniors, not just poor seniors, but everyone, because we're we're relying on the medical system to add years to our life. And somehow we have to figure out how to add life to our years. Right. Well, what gives you hope about the future of aging? I think what gives me hope also is is what I just said about there's a whole group of us that are going to be older, right? And and and I think of you know, my my peers, you know, we we've all dealt with computers. Right. You know, we've all begun to deal with AI. I should have probably said that earlier. I do fear AI for us. It is so, so easy for anyone to be tricked with AI. So that is a concern. But I do think what gives me hope is that we're gonna be front and center. You know, there's so many of us. And if we can embrace the fact that we are older, you know, if we don't other being old, right, then there's a group of us that can say, this is what makes sense for us, not only for us, but also for our families as well. But without that sort of advocacy, it could be really tough. So I'm I'm hopeful that with so many of us turning 65 over the next few years, there's going to be a much more powerful advocacy group that can certainly advocate for the needs of older people.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Vincent, any final thoughts or takeaways that you want to leave our audience?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

You know, I would say a couple of things. One, older adult organizations are often receive the some of the fewer donations than most other organizations, right? We like children's organizations because they're investments, they're our future. We like puppies, humane society, you know, not to pick on humane society, right? But we we feel a connection because we see them as being helpless. But older people, we don't want to see them. We want to sort of shunt them aside, want them to be invisible because it's a reminder of our own mortality, right? Right. So I would say your listeners, find the older organizations in your community, go volunteer with them, support them because older adult organizations don't receive the kind of funds that a lot of other organizations receive. So I would definitely urge your listeners to do that. And then the other thing I would say is really, you know, if there's the older person in your life, definitely stay connected to them. They want to stay connected. They love to tell their stories, but if we don't stay connected to them, we're we're gonna lose a part of our own history as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

I think when isolation, like you said at the beginning, that's one of the worst things for older adults, and it really isn't necessary. There's lots of ways that we can make sure that uh people are included and their voices are heard. And so I appreciate all of the thoughts

Medicare Advantage Confusion And Risk

SPEAKER_01 30:20

you had today, Vincent. If you're interested in the Hannon Center, you can check them out at Hannon.org. Hannon is h-an.org. And so thanks again for listening today. If you liked this podcast, then remember to subscribe, and we you can hear us any place that you listen to podcasts. You can go to manorlawgroup.com. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Thanks for listening. To learn more, visit manorlawgroup.com.